Delphi murders trial, Day 8: The interview that led to Richard Allen’s arrest
Lead investigator in the murders of Abby Williams and Libby German testifies about confronting Richard Allen with firearms tests on bullet found near the bodies, as well as lies during interrogation
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DELPHI MURDERS TRIAL, DAY 8: THE INTERVIEW THAT LED TO RICHARD ALLEN’S ARREST
Armed with a fresh certification from an Indiana State Police forensic firearms examiner that an unspent round found on the ground near the murdered bodies of Delphi teens Abby Williams and Libby German in 2017 matched a pistol found in an October 2022 search of Richard Allen’s Delphi home, the lead investigator testified Saturday that police arrested Allen after confronting him with the evidence days later.
Lt. Jerry Holeman, a detective with Indiana State Police, testified Saturday in Carroll Circuit Court that Allen denied 20 to 25 times during an Oct. 26, 2022, interview that he was the one who killed Abby and Libby on Feb. 13, 2017, and left them in the woods near Delphi’s Monon High Bridge Trail.
That stayed the same after Holeman showed Allen evidence from the state police lab certification about the unfired Winchester .40-caliber Smith & Wesson cartridge and his Sig Sauer P226 handgun.
And it remained the same after a pair of lies Holeman tossed into the mix during the interrogation at the Indiana State Police Lafayette post on Indiana 43 North.
Holeman testified that he told Allen that that an extended cut of a video shot by Libby German – one that showed a man on the Monon High Bridge telling the girls, “Guys … down the hill” – was positively identified as Allen. Holeman said that was lie – which he said was an accepted practice in police interrogations to elicit more information or a confession.
Holeman also testified that he told Allen that eyewitnesses could ID him on and near the trail when Abby and Libby were reported missing the afternoon of Feb. 13, 2017.
“He said, ‘I’m not going to tell you something that I didn’t do,” Holeman testified about what he heard from Allen during the interview. “I told him I thought he did it. He said, ‘Take all your evidence and just arrest me.’”
That’s what investigators did.
Holeman was the lone witness on the stand Saturday during a scheduled half-day in the trial of Allen, a 52-year-old former clerk at the Delphi CVS store clerk charged with four counts of murder in the deaths of Abby Williams, 13, and Libby German, 14. Saturday was Day 8 of testimony in the trial, which is scheduled through Nov. 15 in Carroll Circuit Court, in front of 15 jurors from Allen County.
Over 2½ hours, Holeman’s time on the stand included challenges by Allen’s attorney Andrew Baldwin, who sought to introduce a recording of the entire interview between Holeman and Allen. Judge Fran Gull allowed it, saying that recording would wait until next week, when there was an appropriate time to play it.
In testimony from earlier in the week, the prosecution laid out how the investigation turned to Allen in 2022, more than five years after the murders. Days after the murders, Allen self-reported that he’d been on the trails between 1 p.m. and 3 p.m. the day of the murders. That tip – one current Carroll County Sheriff Tony Liggett testified this week “got lost in the cracks” – resurfaced in 2022 as a volunteer was cataloging files from investigation, leading investigators to return to question Allen.
Liggett testified earlier this week that a search of Allen’s home turned up the Sig Sauer .40 caliber handgun in a nightstand, along with another .40 caliber round, the same brand as the one found at the crime, in a keepsake box on a dresser. Investigators also found a blue Carhartt jacket, among other things, in Allen’s home.
Holeman testified earlier in the week that he sat in a car with Allen during the Oct. 13, 2022, search of his home. Holeman said that when he asked Allen if he wanted to fill out a form for damaged items during the search, he said Allen told him: “It doesn’t matter, it’s over.”
On Saturday, Holeman said investigators got Allen to come to ISP’s Lafayette Post on Oct. 26, 2022, telling him he could pick up some items from the search, including a vehicle. Holeman said Allen was not under arrest but was asked to come into an interview room at the police post.
Holeman testified that after some conversation about how often he used his gun and whether he’d been carrying it with him on the trail on Feb. 13, 2017 – Allen told him he didn’t use the Sig Sauer often and that he didn’t have it when he was on the trail – he pressed Allen about why the round found at the crime scene matched his gun.
Holeman said Allen denied the round was his and told him he didn’t understand how a cartridge matching his gun could have gotten there.
“I confronted him multiple times about it,” Holeman testified Saturday. “Each time, he became more agitated.”
Holeman testified that he asked Allen about what he’d meant when he said it didn’t matter, that “it’s over.”
“He said the damage was done,” Holeman said, referring to how investigators had already interviewed Allen’s neighbors and others about the high-profile case that had been shrouded in mystery for years. “(He said that) everyone believed he did it … that it ruined his life.”
Holeman said Allen continued to deny he was involved after the detective lied, telling him that investigators had evidence from Libby’s video that showed he was the Bridge Guy.
“He kept telling me there was no way that was his bullet,” Holeman said. “He indicated he was pissed off. He said he didn’t fucking do it. … ‘There’s no way that cycled through my gun. I don’t know how it got there.’”
During a break in the interview, Holeman said, Allen told his wife, Kathy, that all she had to do was ask for a lawyer and they’d let her leave. “Don’t worry about me,” Allen said, according to Holeman’s version in testimony.
Asked by Prosecutor Nick McLeland whether Allen showed signs of deception during the interview, Holeman said there were a few “very subtle” signs – touching his face, looking away, not making eye contact.
“I told him his wife and I didn’t believe he was a bad person,” Holeman said. “He said, ‘What kind of good person would kill two girls?’ … That concerned me.”
Holeman said that at the end of the interview, investigators believe they had enough evidence to detain Allen in connection with the murders. Charges were announced against Allen on Oct. 31, 2022.
Baldwin opened his cross examination by asking Holeman: “I saw you looking down a few times during your testimony. … Sign of deception?”
Baldwin noted that Holeman said that Allen had been reminded of his Miranda rights and that he was free to leave the interview at any time. But that portion doesn’t show up in a recording of the interview. Holeman said it was a technical error dealing with the delay in the recording. The defense, throughout the lead-up to trial, has questioned the number of interview recordings lost or erased, particularly from the early portions of the investigation. (“We had a lot of technical difficulties,” Holeman testified Saturday.)
“So, we have to take your word for it?” Baldwin said.
“My word and those of witnesses there,” Holeman said.
Baldwin asked: “When you told those lies, he still said, ‘I didn’t do this?’”
Holeman said that was correct.
Baldwin said a transcripts from the interview show that Holeman told Allen he wasn’t lying and that lying would be unethical. He also said Holeman told Allen that the death penalty was on the table in the case.
“He said, ‘I don’t care, kill me. I’m going to die, anyway,’” Holeman testified that Allen said.
Baldwin turned the cross-examination of Holeman toward testimony from witnesses from the first week of the trial, questioning aspects told by those who said they saw a man on or near the Monon High Bridge Trail that day and attempts to identify Allen’s car on County Road 300 North on the day of the murders.
Baldwin asked why investigators hadn’t asked Libby’s family members for DNA samples to check stands of hair found wrapped around the girls’ fingers. Holeman said they knew the hairs were female and a relative, but that the investigation was busy in other directions and didn’t have a female family member as a suspect.
Baldwin asked why investigators decided against paying $10,000 for a height analysis for the man seen on Libby’s video. Holeman said the money wasn’t the problem, but investigators were concerned about the promised accuracy for the analysis.
Holeman agreed with Baldwin that no DNA from Allen was found at the crime scene and that no DNA from the girls was found at Allen’s home or in his car.
Baldwin pressed Holeman about the possibility that more than one person murdered the girls. He asked Holeman if he believed one person could kidnap the girls at the southwest end of the Monon High Bridge at 2:13 p.m. Feb. 13, 2017 – the timestamp on the video of Bridge Guy – get them to go down the hill, cross Deer Creek, got Abby dressed in several pieces of Libby’s clothing, cut the girls’ throats and then walked away, spotted by a passing driver at 3:56 p.m.
“One person did that?” Baldwin asked.
“Without a doubt,” Holeman said.
Holeman testified that he didn’t believe the girls had been posed or positioned in any particular way, answering a question from Baldwin. Holeman testified he thought sticks found on the girls’ bodies – ones the defense team has theorized were symbols left from an old Norse pagan/Odinist ritualistic killing but has been blocked by the judge to be part of the trial, so far – were an attempt at camouflaging the bodies.
“I believe he may have, could have, heard somebody,” Holeman testified, referring to a car of maybe a family member who had gathered at the trailhead to look for the girls when they didn’t return to meet a ride just after 3 p.m. that day. “That’s just a theory.”
Holeman agreed with McLeland that other than camouflage, the sticks covering the girls could have been the sign of an “undoing” by the killer. That phrase came up in pretrial hearings over the summer, referring to when an offender tries to symbolically reverse the crime by tending to a victim in some way to compensate for feelings of remorse or guilt.
The prosecutor asked Holeman whether there were indications that Abby and Libby were put into a car and taken somewhere else, before being returned to the woods near the Monon High Bridge Trail.
“Absolutely not,” Holeman said.
A FEW NOTES FROM THE COURTROOM: There had been indications in Friday’s session that the prosecution would have a DNA expert testify Saturday. That didn’t happen. But Gull told jurors Saturday that she was ending Saturday’s session after Holeman’s testimony – at 11:20 a.m. – instead of bringing in what she expected would be a lengthy testimony that could take the day past 2 p.m.
Richard Allen has been quiet for most of the first eight days of testimony. Each day, he’s brought into Carroll Circuit Court, unshackled, by guards wearing suits. Allen has been dressed in button-down shirts and khakis, which is a departure from the jail garb he wore during pretrial hearings but a far cry from being dress in suits like the attorneys at the defense table. He’s not been asked to speak during the trial. He often looks back to get eye contact with family sitting in the second row. On Friday, he and attorneys had coffee during part of the session. Allen’s mug read, “You are loved.” Allen also has a pocket-sized Bible at the table, which he opens occasionally long enough to read a few verses.
MORE COVERAGE
Day 7: How investigation tied a bullet found at scene to Richard Allen’s gun
Day 6: How attention turned to a tip Richard Allen gave in the days after the murders
Day 5: Autopsy photos, another ‘Bridge Guy’ witness and new info from Libby’s phone
Day 2: Delphi murder trial: Family friend who found Abby, Libby tells about that day
Day 1: Families testify about Abby, Libby’s last day as Delphi murder trial opens
Final day, pretrial: Composite sketches, other unresolved issues before opening statements Friday
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Tips, story ideas? I’m at davebangert1@gmail.com.
This thought has occurred to me: The prosecution has perhaps shown that the "magic bullet" has been ejected from the make and model of the gun found in the defendant's home, but have they shown that the marks they have examined belong uniquely to that particular gun, or are marks characteristic of those produced by any gun of that make and model? Shouldn't the defense attorneys be looking into this, perhaps by somehow getting a half dozen or so guns of that make and model, to see what marks they make on an ejected cartridge? Do you have a way to get in touch with them?